Surbiton to Kingston mini-Holland proposals

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Half baked and half arsed proposals

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Proposals for Surbiton to Kingston mini-Holland scheme

Truly underwhelming heap of crap.

This scheme is a travesty. This replicates many of the mistakes of the LCN. Cyclists offered substandard provision, treated like pedestrians, mixed with pedestrians, painted cycle symbols instead of infrastructure, no use of Home Zones or filtering, cycle lanes that should be cycle tracks, raised tables used as a panacea but not incorporating continuous pavement / cycleways, cyclists expected to switch sides of the road, no use of 20 mph.

And the reason why this is all so crap? Look at the priorities. Many of which require no changes that might inconvenience 'vehicle' (meaning motor vehicle) access, parking, speeds, etc. Such requirements mean designers have an impossible task and can't possibly achieve the requirements of a 'transformational' Mini Holland scheme.

The idea that these proposals would have even been considered in Holland is laughable. The Dutch wouldn't dream of sticking Toucan crossings at the end of a major cycle lane/track. The designers should be creating plans that meet Dutch CROW standards.

Being grateful for crumbs doesn't encourage anyone to give you a cake they'd rather hide away. I don't think we should support this scheme at all. It is fundamentally flawed and can't be fixed with a few tweaks. There is no way in hell these designs can deliver a cycle environment fully accessible to disabled, young, old, new or nervous cyclists.

Whilst it might be tempting to offer partial support for the bits of segregation I think that would be a grave mistake. 'Partial support' gets presented as part of overall 'support' when consultation responses are analysed. Rejecting them whilst acknowledging there are one or two good bits is the only way to get the message accross.

It is totally unacceptable to have roads with a segregated lane on one side and bike symbols on the other or to mix cyclists and pedestrians at busy junctions. The council and designers don't see bikes as being vehicles - their choice of wording is telling. The designs will deliver the failed dual provision of previous failed schemes. The two-way cycle lane with a Girrafe crossing at one end and a series of Toucan crossings at the other will see a minority of cyclists being willing to behave like pedestrians and use them. Many cyclists will simply move into the main carriageway instead so as not to be delayed unnecessarily. This will cause conflict with drivers.

If there was at least one or two streets done well, we might be able to give partial support. As it stands none of the streets will be altered sufficiently to meet the London Cycle Design Standards and none come close to Dutch standards.

Does anyone seriously think it would be wise to do anything other than oppose the plans and demand that they are completely reworked to treat cyclists as vehicles, enable accessible 5-105 cycling, have high-quality provision in both directions on each road, have close to zero use of shared space and designed to Mini Holland standards.

We owe much to Waltham Forest, who have delivered many high-quality schemes. If this were a scheme in their borough, it would include an area-wide 20 mph and filtered zone covering the minor roads and fully segregated two-way provision on the through roads, probably using stepped tracks.

Either LCC comes back with an alternative scheme or we have to just say 'no' detailing what is wrong with this one. It worked with Portsmouth Road. Kingston seems to be a case of a Conservative council trying to get away with doing next to nothing and then backing down when pressured.

What do others think?

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I'd like to know why Surbiton Station and the roundabout were ignored by RBK in this design (perhaps because motor traffic routes have to be changed to really improve that area?).

There is no point to this particular scheme without even a single "safe" cycling route all the way to the station.

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My thoughts are very similar - this entirely proposal is a bit of a waste of time since nothing connects to anything else. The Claremont section is the "heart" of the proposal but it doesn't get to the station or the shops. Avenue Elmers doesn't join onto Ewell Road. Claremont and Palace Road don't even join, and Avenue Elmers only joins Claremont with some nasty shared space and toucans.

Palace Road and Avenue Elmers are just a waste of paint on the road. As has been pointed out by someone else, either the road is quiet and slow enough to not need cycling provisions, or it's too busy and/or fast and needs speed bumps, but it can't be both busy and quiet at the same time. So bumps and paint-only are contradictory.

But the whole thing falls down without the roundabout at Surbiton. I think the council would be better off putting this whole thing on ice, and proposing a fix for that first, and coming back and doing Claremont / St Mark's Hill when there's something to join them both together.

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Agree. It's not good enough and doesn't deserve KCC support. As discussed elsewhere, responses that say "fully support" and "partially support" get lumped together to make a larger positive outcome. I think we should reject schemes that resort to so much charged use.

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